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I was planning on sharing ideas these during the Legacy Chat that was SUPPOSED to take place last Friday [10/10/2014].
These ideas are very revolutionary, and I'm almost guarantee that you'll hate more of them than you'll like them, and that's OK. Just don't curse me out over them, and we're good. No hard feelings.
With that, here we go:
Idea #1: The Level cap should be higher--MUCH higher--than 100.
I've previously suggested Lv. 250, and I stand by that. At +5 per level up, Mega Man's minimum HP would be a nice, healthy 1,345, and his max, under the rules of the upcoming end-of-year update, would be 10,087. Not bad, considering the power levels that'll likely given to unobtainable bosses. Plus, this caters to both Adrian's idea that things should be maxed out at some point, and Adrian's original ideals that we shouldn't be punished for hitting Level 100. We all win.
Plus, having a max Level beyond 100 will separate Prototype from most other run-of-the-mill RPGs, such as that one that now has well over 800 creatures in it. x)
Idea #2: The experience and Level up systems should be tweaked.
Overkilling is not hard to do. It really isn't. Especially for Mechas. So, I'm suggesting a tweak to the experience system: Nix overkilling bonuses altogether, and award experience based on this formula, using PEMDAS [Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition and Subtraction]:
Effectiveness of the KO attack * [Enemy's Level + Enemy's Attack + Enemy's Defense + Enemy's Speed] = Experience.
So, for example, beating a Lv. 25 Mega Man [with base stats] with a super-effective attack, regardless of what level you are, and regardless of overkill, would give you:
2 * [25 + 220 + 220 + 220] = 1,370 exp.
I'm also suggesting a change in how many exp. you need to level up, with lower amounts needed for lower levels.
Leveling up... ...from Lv. 1 to Lv. 2 should require 200 exp. ...From Lv. 2 to Lv. 3, 300 exp. ...From Lv. 3 to Lv. 4, 400 exp, and so on and so forth.
Under the current system, a mere 98,001 exp. is needed to go from Lv. 1 to Lv. 100. Too easy to do, due to overkilling bonuses. Under *this* formula and without overkilling bonuses, it'll take 504,900 exp. to go from Lv. 1 to Lv. 100, and 3,137,400 exp. to go from Lv. 1 to Lv. 250. I think that's much better. After all, you shouldn't be able to score 9,999 exp. at Lv. 80 on an enemy 50 levels lower than you. That just makes no sense.
If I'm honest though, almost any formula other than the current one would be better. Overkilling exp. bonuses in general just have to go.
Idea #3: The Energy cap should be 999,999, and the Attack, Defense and Speed caps should be 99,999.
Hear me out. Last week, I suggested base stats of 999-500-500-500 for the ultimate form of the proposed omniboss.
At Lv. 100, under the end-of-year update's new formula, this would give him an HP total of somewhere between 1,989-14,898 for Lv. 100 [or 3,149-23,587 for Lv. 250 base stats]. Not high enough for the ULTIMATE.
After more deliberation, a better base stat set for the ultimate form of the ultimate boss would be something closer to 9,999-2,000-2,000-2,000. That may SEEM like too much, but, we ARE talking about the ULTIMATE foe, here.
59,400-445,500 would then be it's HP range at Lv. 100, and 134,250-1,006,875 would be it's HP range at Lv. 250. Much better.
Well, this IS the ULTIMATE, right?
However, this requires the stats limits to be increased, so that there's room for more digits.
Idea #4: Statistically, Mechas, Mini-Bosses, Robot Masters, Bosses and Super-Bosses that you meet later on should be stronger than earlier enemies.
I don't just mean by Level, either. I mean by stats. Enemies' total stats should gradually increase as you go farther and farther into the game: Robot Masters' stats can't stay at 400 for the duration of the whole game, or it runs the risk of being too easy.
400, then, 410, then, 420, then, 430, then, 440 for Robot Masters would be good. After all, Wily made the MM2 bots to be stronger than the MM1 bots. Same holds true for Mechas. While they *are* supposed to be weak, they should pose SOME form of challenge later on in the game.
I have 125-129-140-106 stats for Sheep Man, for example; he'd be more challenging to fight when he's Level 60 or 70 or thereabouts.
Idea #5: Star Forces should be given static increases of +10, and should cover Energy, Attack, Speed AND Defense.
I believe it was Tobyjoey who told me this, originally, but, when a Field for every Robot Master from MM's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8.5, 9 AND 10 have been input into Prototype, there'll be almost EIGHT THOUSAND Star Force Stars JUST FROM COMBINATIONS OF *THEIR* FIELDS.
That's not counting any extra fields that Adrian may or may not plan on adding. +1,890% is ALREADY a big enough boost to Flame, Cutter and Electric-type attacks as it is.
If each of the current 1,024 Star Force Stars gave a static bonus of +10 to their Attack stat instead of +10% to all attacks of that type, Cutter-, Electric- and Flame-type moves would only have a boost of +1,890 attack power, and not the over +10,000 that some currently have on some fields, making attacks like Thunder Beam, Bright Burst, Atomic Fire, Fire Storm, Flame Chaser, Quick Boomerang and Rolling Cutter so overpowered.
So, to rectify this, just have Star Force Stars give a static bonus of +10 to the Energy, Attack, Defense and Speed stats of all robots of that/those type[s]. It makes for much less OP battles in the Player Battles mode, and makes for much more competitive Player Battles.
Idea #6: The Swap and Shuffle abilities [and Field Support] ALSO need to go.
Energy Swap, Attack Swap, Defense Swap, Speed Swap, Energy Shuffle, Attack Shuffle, Defense Shuffle, Speed Shuffle and Field Support all reinforce laziness as well and need to be erased from existence before they can be used to exploit guys like the planned omniboss. That'd be ugly.
Idea #7: Abilities should offer a MAXIMUM increase of double [or +100%].
I have Atomic Fire's and Fire Storm's descriptions telling me that it'll increase Attack and Defense by 100% respectively, but, from what I can see, it increases based on how much damage it does, which, again, if you factor in overkilling, will EASILY activate THAT bug, especially if your Flame-type Star Force bonus is already APOCALYPTICALLY high.
I also have Super Arm's description telling me that it increases defense by--and this is on fields that have a x1 Impact multiplier--over 20,000%! Likely that high due to the +1,260% Star Force bonus for Impact-type attacks, but, still, that's ridiculous.
Same thing for Leaf Storm, really. I have it's descrip telling me that it'll boost defense by over 400% on an field whose Nature multiplier is x1! It should only be boosting defense by a maximum of double, to be fair and square.
And don't get me started on Danger Bomb. PLEASE don't.
I could separate each of your suggestions with my own response, but overall I have to agree with you. Each thing you have described is a serious issue and while I've taken advantage of them all and will miss them if they go, if the Prototype is to be taken as an a legitimate game and not just some basic fan game simply thrown together for fun these issues do need to be taken care of.
Posted on October 15th, 2014 at 4:52pmEdited on 2014/10/15 at 5:08pm
Posted 2014/10/15 at 4:52pmEdited 2014/10/15 at 5:08pm
Might as well voice my opinion....Seeing how I got a LOT of it.
1. Interesting to say the least. Of course, I don't know what a clear-given limit could be. Seeing as how there isn't much to do with this game anyway, having a higher level cap will just add more grinding to do. And Starforce will tell you, how much it'll make you grind.
2. Probably my favorite idea so far. I like the PEMDAS idea, and while I will regret it's loss, I'd like to see something like this....IF the system can handle it. Being a browser game, I wouldn't be too sure. And the second half....Eh...You argue in your first idea that we're borrowing it from Pokémon, but this idea presented is doing the opposite of the first idea. I like the system, and I'm not too fond of it being changed.
3.NOPE! IDEA 7 BASICALLY COUNTERPOINTS THIS!
4. Yeah, I see this working. Just that stronger Robot Masters like Sheep Man would be unbalanced. The first part's fine though.
5. I see what you're saying here. Not bad.
6. NOPE! You could just make a limit of what moves you could use or now. Scrapping entire moves seems....No.
I agree with most of what you say here, however, I'd like to add to point #4 that, while it's OK for some Robot Masters to have higher Base Stats than others, there should be 2 versions of those: One that has high stats (like the Sheep Man you mentioned) and a tweaked, balanced one that fits the 400 base stats limit, which would be the unlockable Sheep Man, that way all of the Robot Masters have an equal chance in the end game.
Posted on October 16th, 2014 at 12:45pmEdited on 2014/10/16 at 1:53pm
Posted 2014/10/16 at 12:45pmEdited 2014/10/16 at 1:53pm
@RaynorX : Exactly my point, Raynor. The Prototype has too many things that people can exploit in the later stages.
@MegaBonesMan : @ your response to 1: As it stands, everything in the endgame will be at or close to Lv. 100; MM9 bots, maybe MM10's, too. The game's difficulty will pretty much halt at that point, save for unobtainables. What kind of Level caps would YOU have in mind?
@ your response to 2: Ah, ah, ah. I didn't say that Prototype borrows anything from anyone. I said that having a Level cap beyond 100 will separate it from run-of-the-mill RPGs that cap at Lv. 100, LIKE that one with 800+ creatures in it. You also have to explain to me how this idea is the opposite of #1, as #1 deals with an extending of a Level cap and #2 deals with the EXTREMELY BROKEN exp. system.
@ your response to #3: Again, you must explain how. #3 is an idea of extending the stat caps to accommodate unobtainables' likely extremely high stats, and #7 deals with the extreme brokenness of the increasing of stats well beyond the advertised values [or in Super Arm's and Leaf Shield's cases, the extreme brokenness of the advertised value, itself].
@ your response to #4: By the time you face Sheep Man, though, your robots will be at, like, Level 50, at the very least, and seeing as how games are supposed to be HARDER as you go through them, it would make sense for RM's total base stat values to increase, to reflect an increase in challenge. RM's with total base stats of 500 [like MM10's would be if it were up to me] at Lv. 60+ or 70+ would be a worthy challenge, seeing as how you've defeated *at least* 66 other RMs to that point, and gained *****loads***** of experience for them.
@ your response to #5: Thanks. I figure that +5,000% for flame attacks would be way too broken, though, you know? :P
@ your response to #6: Oh, stop being lazy and level up like everyone else. :P Scrapping these 9 abilities would make that a necessity, and not a choice. You shouldn't be handed a DECISION of whether or not to be stronger, it should ***BE*** a necessity, especially in a game that's as long as this is planned to be, and with enemies as strong as the planned unobtainables will be.
@ your response to #7: See my response to your response to #3.
@Sp00kynnico : While that idea SOUNDS good in theory, there would be one potentially major problem with it: too balanced.
While I completely understand the need to try to have a game with unlockables that are as balanced as possible, the problem with this is that the game will NOT have balanced unobtainables. there will NOT be balanced optional bosses, and there will DEFINITELY not be a balanced omniboss. Some unlockables NEED to be faster than others, and some others NEED to be more defensive than others and some others NEED too have more HP than others in order to create true diversity and difference between the unlockables, especially as there's planned to be, what...about 80 unlockables? 90? 100, maybe? Possibly more?
@MetaWereSter : ...and 1, 3 and 7 agree with you agreeing with them. :P
@ThatGhostNamedMike : Congrats on hitting 100 posts!
Posted on October 16th, 2014 at 1:45pmEdited on 2014/10/16 at 2:38pm
Posted 2014/10/16 at 1:45pmEdited 2014/10/16 at 2:38pm
1: I'm really not sure what to make of this. Level 100 kind of takes a while to grind to unless you have a bunch of Starforce that boosts the EXP you get. I guess the fact we can no longer grind stats does make this sound more manageable, though, since it took me at least a couple of hours or so straight before I could boost someone to full 9999 stats, and this was doing it when Mechas could provide the full amount of stat bonuses, btw. So for me I do not mind if this gets changed or not.
2: Logically your idea makes sense. Overkilling robots just made getting 9,999 exp sometimes pretty easy especially if you hit the robot with a weakness. I'm for removing overkilling on robots (though we SHOULD still get to see how crazy powerful our attack was, and I'd like to see this for any of my robots getting killed as well), though I do oppose needing more exp per level. You're just encouraging more grinding if you do it this way, and if someone doesn't have a lot of Starforce, getting past level 100 is going to take a lot of time to do. Remember that you're not leveling up a small party of characters like in typical RPGs. You're trying to level up entire armies. Think about how much time it's going to take to accumulate over 200,000 exp just to go from level 200 to 201. Are you also going to impose a limit of 9,999 exp per robot? There are many other things that take time to do in this game, and I think people might lose interest if they have to grind to beat end-of-chapter robots just because they couldn't level up as fast as they could before. If you insist on requiring people to need so much experience to level up, then I also oppose overkill on robots just because it will take too long otherwise. I say this having spent days upon days of my time just grinding for stats (which no one else has done yet for all robots), and for getting Starforce. Most people probably wouldn't want to do tedious grinding like this, and that's just what you're suggesting here regarding robot levels.
3: I thought the idea here was NOT to have robots reach so high stats for more diversity? You might want to remember the attacks that ignore Defense or do a percentage of damage. Having 999,999 Energy would make for really long battles, too (plus it actually would require more memory to store. If you want a max Energy limit without requiring the game to have to do more work to run, set it to around 65,535. If you end up learning how to program later, you'll understand why I suggest that number). That said, having max stats myself, I would just be crazy about crazy high stats, but I will stick with my previous stance. If you just increase stat limits, then there's an even bigger divide between the people playing for fun and those willing to dedicate a lot of time to buffing their robots. I think Adrian's current system of NOT letting robots get higher stats would work. Your so-called "omniboss" can just have the true max stats, a crazy amount of Energy, and resistance (or greater) to elements that have weapons that tend to bend the damage formula to their liking. Unless robots can be kept in control when their stats get raised, we're all of the way back to where we are now where top robots OHKO each other.
4: This really doesn't make any sense. Mega Man himself doesn't get any stronger throughout the course of the games (in fact, he actually gets WEAKER transitioning from MM8 to MM9). While future robot enemies in the story should be stronger, I do not support adjusting base stats just because a robot was made later. If that was true, fighting a Stardroid would be hell. If robots get better base stats, why even bother training MM1 robots when MM9 and MM10 robots do everything they can do, but better? Why should I continue training Gemini Man when Jewel Man can do everything better than Gemini Man can? Why bother with Guts when we got Concrete?
5: It's crazy when even an ability like Thunder Strike can KO a max stat robot. Starforce is really out of control at this point, and that's now, not when more robots come onto the scene. Reducing the bonuses to Attack and applying it to Defense would really balance things out.
6: Why do these abilities have to go just because of a single boss that the top players will just easily whoop later? Rather, the fact robots no longer have max stats actually make these abilities quite useful again. If you're so concerned about these abilities against your "boss", make the boss immune to Neutral-type abilities. It's not that hard.
7: And here is where removing true max stats for robots becomes a double-edged sword. When your stats are maxed out, these kinds of abilities don't help you. Now that stats are being removed from their max amount, a check to see the weapons are really doing what they are saying they are is not a bad idea at all.
Posted on October 16th, 2014 at 3:36pmEdited on 2014/10/16 at 7:13pm
Posted 2014/10/16 at 3:36pmEdited 2014/10/16 at 7:13pm
@ your response to #1: I came up with Level 250 to make it harder to max out and for it to stand out amongst other RPG's, really. Nearly every RPG seems to max at Lv. 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 99 or 100, nowadays. x)
@ your response for #2: 201,000 exp. to level up from 200 to 201, to be precise, and if you figure in the exp. you'd get from Bonus Field 2 for beating Level 100 RM's, for example, you'd have WELL over 2,000 exp. per RM. 4,000+ if you KO them with their weakness. That adds to almost 50 battles to get from Lv. 200 to Lv. 201, and you can say that that's too much, but, honestly, consider the 1,024 Star Force Stars that Prototype currently has. Getting all of those require grinding, doesn't it?
@ your response for #3: These limits are to accommodate for the likely massive stats that unobtainables will have. The ultimate foe has to have the HP total to match, and 9,999 isn't gonna cut it; too easy. Oh, and by the way, The low limit is 59,400 HP at Lv. 100 [or 134,250 HP at Lv. 250] if the HP stat is 9,999, so, actually, 262,143 as the absolute maximum would suffice. Yeah, I know all about the 0, 1, 3, 7, 15, 31, 63, 127, 255, 511, 1,023, 2,047, 4,095 programming thing. :P
@ your response for #4: As I've said to Spooky, difference in power and defense and health matter when there's well over 100 planned unlockables. If every unlockable has the same 400 stats, it'll boring and easy, regardless of what Level they are. There HAS to be a statistical difference between them besides just giving all 100+ unlockables the same max stat totals. That's not diverse at all. Also, I didn't completely suggest an icrease in stat totals solely on when each RM was made. I also suggested so because there's supposed to be a noticeable--but reasonable--incline in challenge when you get later and later into the game, and doing so by just leveling them up until they hit Lv. 100 or Lv. 250 or whatever the max level is isn't challenging enough.
@ your response for #5: Static bonuses of +10 to each stat of each robot of the Star's type[s] is a more tamer bonus, yes, but, it does prevent massive overkilling of other expert players, such as how your teams keep killing mine. xD
@ your response to #6: Not MY omniboss, by the by. Join the Legacy chats more often and you'd know that. :P The planned omniboss in not the only planned permanent unobtainable in the Prototype. The fact is that these abilities can be used to make bosses who are supposed to be very challenging powerhouses look like complete wimps, and no immunity to a type is going to fix that, because there's 19 OTHER types of robots that can use the same 9 abilities. Shouldn't an optional boss--one that you DON'T have to take on, but,should be very hard TO take on--force the player to use their skills and not cheap glitches (the official descriptions for the Shuffle and Swap abilities LITERALLY call all 8 of them 'glitches')?
@ your response to 7: Uhh, actually, Adrian stated in the end-of-year update topic that you'll still be able to ncrease your stats to 9,999 with broken abilities such as the aforementioned Atomic Fire, Fire Storm, Leaf Shield, Thunder Beam and Super Arm. Mind you, Look the the Bugs section for the Atomic Fire/Fire Storm bug that I found and Boss posted. That bug will likely still exist, come the end-of-year-update, and that's another reason that the absolute stat limits need to be increased.
@ your response to #1: What would you suggest, then?
@ your response to #2: Maybe so, but, leaving it at 1,000 exp. per level up makes leveling up way too EASY.
@ your response to #3: The only bosses with 6-digit HP's would likely be--like the planned omniboss--permanently unobtainable, yes.
@ your response to #4: Because if all 100+ unlockable RM's max stat totals are 400, that's not true diversity. Some RM's having 400 and some having 470 and some having 420 and some having 450 and some having 500 and some having 410 and some having 430 is pretty dern diverse. :P
@ your response to #5: Hehe. What with Field Multipliers, it'd help with Energy, too.
@ your response to #6: As I said, these abilities encourage laziness. As I also told Tails, if you become strong, it should be by skills and experience, and not because you used glitches. Plus, they can exploit unobtainables and make them look like kiddies. That's not supposed to happen with what's supposed to be the toughest foes in the game.
@ your response to #7: And it 100% agrees with you. :P
Posted on October 16th, 2014 at 8:03pmEdited on 2014/10/16 at 8:23pm
Posted 2014/10/16 at 8:03pmEdited 2014/10/16 at 8:23pm
1 & 2: These kinda relate to the same topic, so I am combining them. I fell no less than 150 and no greater than 200 are best, probably closer to 200 than 150. However, this fluctuates on how much xp you need. Yeah 1000 xp per level is cheap (especially with overkill bonus), but if it takes 3,137,400 to get to 250 from 1, that seems kinda excessive. If it was say 150 or 175, that would be manageable imo.
3. Seems we agree well enough here.
4. Look at what you just said. A difference of 400-500. That could be 25 in each stat. Let's say we have the Pokemon Shuckle and Registeel. Registeel has 75 more Base Stat Total than Shuckle, but that doesn't immediately outclass Shuckle. Ignoring Types and Abilities, Shuckle of course has tiny HP, Attack, Special Attack, and Speed, while Registeel has poorer Defense and Special Defense but his other stats are much better. Not to mention with so many moves they can learn changes strategies. This isn't the case with MMRPG as there simply isn't that much depth. So unless each Robot Master has DRASTIC stat differences, I still can't see this working. I mean, Pokemon still is plagued with problems of Pokemon being overused even with it's diversity.
5. Again, we seem to agree. :p
6. The only idea I have is maybe they only lasted for 3 turns? And while one was in affect you couldn't use another? I dunno, I guess there needs to be a change, but I don't see removal being it.